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Section: M7
SSN: 7573
Q1: Why look at justice in the state?
Q2: What is the origin of the state?
Q3: What role do innate differences play in division of labor?
Q4: Why increase production of farms and crafts beyond the needs of the state?
Q5: What is Glaucon's objection to the first city? What does he contemptuously call it?
Q6: What is the origin of war?
Date: 07 September 1999
Time: 21:26
A1:
Socrates explains that the search for justice is a difficult one. He likens it to trying to read fine print from a distance. In order that one may better identify the fine print, it would be easier to look at something closer and with larger letters and then compare to see if they match. Socrates offers justice in the city as that closer example to determine what justice to a single man is (Hackett 62).
A2:
People come together because no man is entirely "self-sufficient" (Hackett 62). It starts from a single person needing one thing from another, then a second receives help from a third and so on until a community of people have gathered in one location living symbiotically. There is no other foundation, according to Socrates. The basic needs that every man tries to fulfill begin with food, shelter, clothes...(Hackett 62).
A3:
Adeimantus adds to the discussion that we aren't all born the same and that some people are born better suited to do specific jobs. Thus, they should do those to the best of their ability and nothing more, nothing less. "The result, then, is that more plentiful and better-quality goods are more easily produced if each person does one thing for which he is naturally suited..." (Hackett 63). The combination of an individual performing one task and by the nature of his devotion to only one thing, being able to do it better is a simple economic principle of specialization. If a person has collected the tools, skills, and other resources to master a trade, he can do the work of 50 men in the same time. That is how one is able to provide for the needs of many.
A4:
It is impossible to have a community large enough to provide EVERYTHING that will be needed. Therefore, it is necessary to trade with other communities. In order to trade, the first community must have something that the second desires to trade for. In that, it is necessary to produce a surplus of goods so that the remainder left unused by the city can be doled out for imported goods. However, before we accept all of this logic as total truth it would be in Socrates' interest to define the word "need" that he so often uses. It seems as though in some cases need could be replaced with convenience or comfort which are very different social drivers. He later claims that his aim is toward the healthy, rather than the luxurious city, but I would question whether some of his additions are there for comfort rather than survival, ie. wine, wreaths for headpieces, currency...
A5:
Glaucon argues that the life of the citizens in Socrates' ideal city would be better suited for perhaps, the Spartans. Socrates sarcastically lists many other luxuries that he believes wholly unnecessary for Glaucon, but Glaucon argues that a "city for pigs," a lower life form, would even have at least these things (Hackett 65).
A6:
Once the community has "surrendered [itself] to the endless acquisition of money and have overstepped the limit of their necessities," war between civilizations will ensue (Hackett 66). Socrates argues that it is desire that is responsible for the bad that comes to a city (Hackett 66). It is the desire for what is not totally necessary. Therefore, what is the most basic level of living, suitable for all mankind that will prevent war? Is that not how world peace will be achieved, when one civilization ceases to have anything that the other wants? What then with the Ten Commandments, particularly "Thou shalt not covet...?"
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Section: M2
SSN: 4860
Q1: Why look at justice in the state?
Q2: What is the origin of the state?
Q3: What role do innate differences play in division of labor?
Q4: Why increase production of farms and crafts beyone the needs of the state?
Q5: What is Glaucon's objection to the first city? What does he contemptuously call it?
Q6: What is the origin of war?
Date: 09 September 1999
Time: 17:53
A1:
People aren't clever, and therefore need an aid to understand things. Plato suggests that we magnify justice in a person to the level of justice in the city-state. By examining the origins of the city we should be able to determine the origins of justice in a person.
A2:
Cities (and therefore states) are founded because we humans are not self-sufficient. We have needs, Plato cites food, shelter and clothing, and these needs are much easier to obtain when we cooperate in groups. This is the most basic origin of a society, or state.
A3:
Our talents allow us to excel in some areas, while others have other tasks. It makes more sense for a farmer to like what he does and be good at it than for him to try to be a blacksmith, hate it, and not do a good job. This leads the farmer to specialize his skills in farming, and another will specialize in metalworking. The same idea holds true for all people, we want to specialize in what we like and are naturally good at.
A4:
Cities (just like humans) are not self-sufficient. I can grow great olives and grapes in Hellas, but they don't supply all of my needs. So I need to trade, and that means that we need to have extra farms and crafts to export the surplus and import things that we need.
A5:
The objection to this first city is that it has no delicacies. It is a plain city. Glaucon says that it is a "city for pigs," he obviously feels that such a plain city would only satisfy animals. People want luxury.
A6:
In order to afford a luxurious lifestyle we need even more land and resources, so we begin wanting it from our neighbors. And if our neighbors also want luxury they will be doing the same thing. Conflict will break out and we'll fight - more land, more money, more pleasure.
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Section: M7
SSN: 2821
Q1: Why look at justice in the state?
Q2: What is the origin of the state?
Q3: What role do innate differences play in division of labor?
Q4: Why increase production of farms and crafts beyond the needs of the state?
Q5: What is Glaucon's objection to the first city? What does he contemptuously call it?
Q6: What is the origin of war?
Date: 09 September 1999
Time: 21:15
A1:
The city is obviously larger than a single man and it will be easier to discover what justice is in a larger subject (the city) than it would to define justice using the example of one man.
A2:
The origin of a state comes from the people. People are not self-sufficient. They cannot survive individually. The state is created to aid in survival and providing the most goods to satisfy everyone. People living in a community can put all of their efforts together to create and sustain more goods, for example food. The more farmers, the more crops, and the more people eat. The power of many will help everyone better themselves.
A3:
People are individuals and everyone has a craft in which they are better suited to perform. More plentiful and better quality goods will be created if each person does the one thing that he is naturally suited to. The most qualified person will complete all of the necessary crafts required by a city. This creates the division of labor.
A4:
The state is going to neighbor other cities and it is impossible to establish a city in a place where nothing has to be imported. To import needed materials for this state, it must create crafts beyond the needs of the state so that it can create trade. This trade will allow the other cities to receive their necessary goods that our city exports and us to receive our necessary imports.
A5:
Glaucon’s objection to the first city is that the people living in it will be living a very bland life, deprived of luxury and materialistic items, only supplied with what is only necessary. He calls what Socrates was founding, the "city for pigs." He calls the city this because Socrates is trying to create a city in which all needs will be provided for, but like your pigs, you would want to feed them on more than just what is necessary to survive for your own benefit. So for our own benefit, we need more goods than what is necessary for survival.
A6:
The way of life that has been discussed is that everyone provides their specific necessary craft. This will not satisfy everyone. More and more luxuries will be demanded and the city will grow and grow until it meets with the other cities’ borders. Once they meet, the two cities will want to seize each other’s land so that they can grow to meet their own desires. For example we need more plough land and pastures for our greater herds of cattle that are required to feed the growing population.
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Section: M2
SSN: 1398
Q1: Why look at justice in the state?
Q2: What is the origin of the state?
Q3: What role do innate differences play in division of labor?
Q4: Why increase production of farms and crafts beyond the needs of the state?
Q5: What is Glaucon's objection to the first city? What does he contemptuously call it?
Q6: What is the origin of war?
Date: 09 September 1999
Time: 23:55
A1:
It sounds as if they have already determined that there is justice in a single man. If then there is justice in a single man, and a city is greater than the single man since it is larger. It will also develop injustice too.
A2:
Since no man is self sufficient, people need other people to survive. The city is founded upon the needs of the individuals. One seeks a need from another. That person find another to fulfill his need until there's a large group of people working together to satisfy one another's needs.
A3:
They cause individuals to specialize on in form of work, different from everyone else, thus providing their unique and specialized service to the city. When each person in the city specializes in different areas of work, the result is more plentiful and better quality goods, more easily produced.
A4:
Not everyone in the city would be able to produce every single need. For that reason, they must produce more of what they have so that they can export to other cities. By exporting, they can trade and import the goods that they need. (That which they can't produce themselves.)
A5:
It was a city built only on necessities. Then Adeimantus added delicacies to the formula for the city. He described a city where the people live as lazy gluttons, taking their fill of life, and Glaucon related it to a city of pigs. He thought they should, if not suffer hardship dine in a conventional way.
A6:
The land that was once adequate for the population and sustained life will become too small to meet the needs of the people. To find more land, they would have to seize some land from nearby neighbors. The neighbor will want to seize some also. The will surrender to the endless acquisition of money.
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Section: M2
SSN: 4993
Q1: Why look at justice in the state?
Q2: What is the origin of the state?
Q3: What role do innate differences play in division of labor?
Q4: Why increase production of farms and crafts beyond the needs of the state?
Q5: What is Glaucon's objection to the first city? What does he contemptuously call it?
Q6: What is the origin of war?
Date: 10 September 1999
Time: 00:38
A1:
We must look at justice in the state because individuals have justice, and many individuals make up a state. Therefore, there will be more justice in a city or state, and it will be easier to learn exactly what justice is.
A2:
The origin of the state is the interdependence of people on one another, which leads to many people gathering together to live together as partners and helpers to fulfill each other’s needs.
A3:
Innate differences cause some people to be suited to one task and others to be suited for another. For example, people who are born with traits such as strength would make them suitable for labor, whereas weaker people could serve a city as a merchant or retailer.
A4:
The state must also consider its relationship with other states, such as imports and exports, and thus needs to also produce goods to meet the demand from these other states.
A5:
Glaucon objects to the first city by stating that the citizens "feast without any delicacies," or, in other words, simply carry out basic needs for survival. He calls it a city for pigs.
A6:
The origin of war is the constant desire of man to surrender themselves to the endless acquisition of money, land and power. As a city grows, people find a desire to take things from others, and those who are affected will want to do the same to others.